Jen Hamilton (00:31)
And my guest is Diane Metzer. I'm so excited for her to be here. And I just can't wait for us to dig into this conversation. Diane, thanks for being my guest today.
Diane Mentzer (00:42)
Jen, thank you so much for having me on. I'm super excited about this too.
Jen Hamilton (00:46)
Yeah, oh well, okay, I can't wait for you all to hear what we're gonna talk about. But before we do, let's get warmed up with a couple questions. So I have a couple little lightning round questions I wanna ask. If your COO superpowers had a name, what would it be?
Diane Mentzer (01:03)
it would be the alignment accelerator.
Jen Hamilton (01:07)
I love that you want to a little more.
Diane Mentzer (01:11)
Yeah, because I'm looking at some strategies that help really create that alignment faster and to make it stick. I went through, was like alignment force field, but that felt too, you know, holding people in and that's not what I'm about, but it's really about strategies to create that alignment faster without a lot of stress and incremental change and just really accelerating the benefits that they get from having alignment at the top, which really
just improves everything.
Jen Hamilton (01:42)
It does, I love that. It does make a huge difference when the linemen at the top. We're gonna talk more about that as we dig in before we do. So what types of businesses do you love working with? And that you're excited when they put out the call for help.
Diane Mentzer (01:49)
Okay.
Yeah, super excited when they put out the call for help is, well, because we'll get into this a little bit more, but you know, I really work with a COO or that second in command is when one, a COO or second command who's been promoted from within in a company of 20 to 200 people is like really my sweet spot. Like somebody that's really cares and that companies that are excited all in on the mission.
and really are looking for ways to work together and make it better where with the CEO who or founder who cares about their people. But it's really that's that founder led that partnership between the two, but people who are all in and really wanting it to be great.
Jen Hamilton (02:41)
that mission focused and people being aligned and team focused because there are different business owners out there and those who are really committed to their team and committed to making a difference, I don't know about you, but they're way more fun to work with.
Diane Mentzer (02:55)
They are they really are because that harmony at the top impacts the culture throughout and If you're not committed to your team that shows and that comes through Even if you try to hide it, which I've known some people like that,
Jen Hamilton (03:11)
Yeah, β yeah. We won't get into that one today.
Diane Mentzer (03:14)
Yeah,
because we're going to do fun stuff and talk about the awesome founders who really want their teams and companies to thrive because when your people thrive, your company thrives.
Jen Hamilton (03:17)
Yes, exactly!
Well before we get into some of the fun stuff, let's talk about something that's not maybe as fun. So what's one thing that business owners do all the time that makes you want to put on your cape and shout, please stop doing it, it's killing your business?
Diane Mentzer (03:30)
Okay.
It's really that not recognizing the importance of being in sync with their COO and the fact that being in sync and creating that alignment matters and it impacts everybody's ability to support them. And so when they're... β
And it ties into the whole pulling company in different directions because you've got a million ideas and you're not, guess that's it too. It's like not letting anything unfold. Like not trusting in the process or trusting in your people to let it unfold a little bit β with those. And they're all kind of related there, but it's that not valuing the partnership and the...
way that working together and getting everybody on the same page and driving forward together and how that what a difference that really makes.
Jen Hamilton (04:35)
which is why you're the alignment accelerator.
Diane Mentzer (04:40)
Yes. It is, it is.
Jen Hamilton (04:42)
Well, let's get into the topic. So the topic we're diving into today is something that I know is near and dear at your heart. And so I'm excited to learn from you and dig in a little bit more around this role clarity. So you've talked a lot about partnership. You talked about sync and alignment. And I think it really begins with role clarity. But I want to hear from you. What do we talk about when we're saying role clarity? Let's start there.
Diane Mentzer (05:08)
Yeah, so I know you and I both are trained EOS integrators and we know about the accountability chart and how wonderful it is to think about your company in terms of what are the seats and how that helps you with planning and building out and knowing what to hold people accountable for, which is all awesome. What I found when I was first putting that into practice was that is awesome. It's also not enough.
It's enough for that, for that tool, for that exercise. It's awesome. And exactly as it is, but behind that and to even really build that out effectively, you need that deeper role clarity based on what is really happening. Because what I found out is we sat in the leadership team and we built this accountability chart. And for other reasons, we started digging into role clarity. was part of, as I was going to be transitioning out of the company. we're like, okay, we want real clear.
clarity at the top about who's doing what, make sure everything's covered. It highlighted these gaps that we didn't uncover with just the accountability chart because what was happening in the day to day and how many people were really filling portions of each seat because the company had grown and people take on things and you never take the time to step back and say, okay, what is everybody actually doing? And it's not.
a punitive thing. It's not we're trying to catch you doing something you shouldn't be. It's like we have to understand what exactly is happening in the day to day and then look at so what I did by person and then it's like let's categorize everybody's work by what type of work it is. That shows you the seats that you actually have right now. You may decide to do something different with them but it shows you what you have right now and so and getting the
you, the staff involved in developing it gives them buy-in creates their greater sense of, of, of feel for how they fit into the mission. So there's lots and lots of benefits as you go through the process and do it. But it really came out of, um, wanting to understand and build based on fact, making sure there's alignment. And what I realized too, while doing that, and this was a few years ago and I've refined it and use it with the clients and perfected it as we've
you know, every time I use it, make little tweaks, but is that.
gosh, I lost it. So what the other big light bulb moment for me, sorry about that, is that we have these super clear job descriptions for entry level people. Like we're going to hire you, we're going to pay you, not very much. And here's all the things that you have to do, who you report to, all this stuff. And then you have leadership team people, especially if they've come up from within and it's like, yeah, you're in charge of this. Well.
That's great. And yes, you have smart, amazing people who can absolutely all figure it out and keep it going, but they're not aligned and they're not in sync. So you could unintentionally be pulling your company in just slightly different directions, but those slightly different directions are enough. And if there's conflicting and people are more in silos. So this helps with all of those things, which β you don't realize, like you really don't realize until you start to fix it.
how, and it's not fixed like it's broken, until you start to refine it and define it, you don't even realize how much wasted time and energy and miscommunications and frustrations and how it's impacting your culture. You don't even really realize that until you start to dig into it, but it impacts all of those. That alignment at the top impacts everything.
Jen Hamilton (08:59)
think that's what's so powerful about it too and why I'm excited to hear some of your it, know, what you have learned, which we'll get into a little bit of what you can do. But I think that it's really important for people to understand that the thing that I think is challenging is this is a very expensive way when there's that misalignment, when there's that out of sync, when it's not clear. the problem is...
you can't just see it on the income statement, right? There isn't like an expense line for a misaligned team. So it doesn't feel as impactful. is, it is. And you started to talk a little bit about what it is that can happen. But I would love to hear, you have a, without naming names, do you have a specific story of like what, maybe something where you went in and you're like, I cannot believe this or.
where you see a company that is so misaligned and that ripple effect, what does that look like on their culture? What does that look like in their productivity?
Diane Mentzer (10:03)
Yeah, β and you're absolutely right. It really impacts things. So I worked with an amazing leadership team. when I do my process, there's a kickoff call. People log their tasks. We meet individually. And then we meet as a team to pull it all together. And then they leave with this improved.
document, you know, thinking about it and roles and things like that. And so at the kickoff meeting, and I know, you know, when somebody's coming in, it's like, we're gonna come in, they're gonna work on this. So yeah, there's a little bit of a gosh, why are we even here? This is gonna be another thing I don't have time for. β So there was a little bit of that. But I also felt even though we were on zoom, I could really feel that there was some tension between members of the team, just how people looked when other people were talking and just some little things that I picked up on.
It was not a happy place to be. And we're dealing with some frustrations and that's why I came in. There was double work. There was some drop balls. They just knew that they knew they had some challenges there. And we went through it. Everybody logged their tasks. Because I'm an β external person, they were really able to open up with me in the one-on-one. So I got insights from all of them about
what things were bugging them, where they saw drop balls being dropped. But the interesting thing, and this has happened with absolutely every person that I've done this with from CEOs to leadership team members to actually even in the company I used to work for admin staff, everybody is surprised when they spend two weeks and two weeks seems like a lot, but you spend two weeks.
Just writing down what do you do every day, just noting it in this Excel file. And it doesn't have to be perfect. You don't have to stop every minute, you know, get the majority of it and then look back at that and think about the things that are on your list that you never get to, you know, that piece of paper that just sits there with all the things that are important that you never get to and working those in. Every single person was surprised by some element of how they're spending their time.
we're able to get everybody at least one to two hours per day back after going through this process, partly because we were able to consolidate some things, we were able to remove some double work. But the other thing that going through this process and then being together as a team with everybody, because then I put it all in everybody's individual sheet goes into one master spreadsheet, you know, so you can sort by type of work, you know, what the role is, importance to the company, the different things that you can can look at. And
everybody started to understand what everybody else was doing because that's part of it you get everybody on the same page with what everybody else is doing and the that feeling that we've all had at some point I If somebody can if somebody has never had this I want to meet them right where you're sitting in your office or at your desk and you're going What the heck are they doing down the hall like it is all on me?
Everybody is felt that way sometimes and there's certain levels of justification. Absolutely. I'm not trying to say there isn't, but when they came together as a team and started seeing what other people were working on that they didn't realize they were working on, like that level of trust that, everybody is operating from good intentions. Everybody is trying to do what's best for the company. And we had, you know, some people who are like, β I didn't realize I was supposed to hand this off at this point. I thought I was supposed to hand it off at this point.
And somebody else was saying, well, I never asked that person because they always just seem so busy. And I didn't want it. So, you know, things weren't getting done by the right person or in the right order. And we were able to fix all of that. And then we were also able to look at some of the β processes they had where it's like, is this really necessary? Like something seemed a little bit duplicative and as a team talk through it and it's like, β actually, if we add this element to this process, then that'll cover everything and we can just get rid of this one.
But everybody knew where the handoffs were. They understood who owned what. And so we had that meeting. And then I meet with them 30 days later just to see how things are going and if we need to do any tweaking or refining. And it was like a, it was just like night and day, like, you know, or like you watch the movie and there's like the black cloud over the team at the beginning. And this, had our next meeting and the sun's shining in and everybody's happy. And they, they just.
Jen Hamilton (14:34)
you
Diane Mentzer (14:37)
because they had a plan to work together and everybody agreed to it and everything flowed so the process were flowing faster. They closed new deals faster and people had time back. They weren't stressed wondering if this was supposed to be the right thing to so it reduced their stress. It improved their morale. It increased their trust. It was just such a wonderful thing to be part of and to see and you know, so that's that's why I love doing this like because you can come in and make a real difference.
And they all got big gold stars for being bought in and ready and willing to do it, right? Everybody did it. They logged their work. They fill out a couple variables. And then when we're on the call, I unhide some more columns and we do some together, because some of it just matters for certain level tasks. So I try to make it as easy as possible on them. Everything's a dropdown list. They just kind of click through it, can do it pretty quickly.
Jen Hamilton (15:34)
That's incredible. mean, it's hard to say within 30 days or even like a two week timeframe that you can universally save one to two hours on everyone. So it's, I, if you can't tell how important it is, what would it be like to have everyone on your team? Especially the leadership team who's often running around crazy, the owners running around crazy because they feel like I've got to pick up those drop balls that you're talking about or.
the complaints from customers or clients or the complaints between the team. So I imagine that like the time saving rolls up even more so because they can trust their team. team I'm hearing what you say are trusting each other because they understand. And when the day is done, I hear you talking about, it makes all the difference in the world is knowing who does what when.
Diane Mentzer (16:03)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Thank
Yep. Yep. And then the next level of it is you've got this list of what it actually takes to run your company right now at the leadership team level. Then you can make sure that you've got somebody trained, cross-trained in every single thing. So somebody's out unexpectedly for two months, which happened at the company where I worked. And boy, did we scramble because we did not have this. β Was out for two months unexpectedly and we had to figure out what was going on, where things were.
Jen Hamilton (16:27)
So here they are.
Diane Mentzer (16:55)
I mean, you'll still have some scrambling because you won't have the details of every single piece, but you know what they, they, they're in charge of, you know, where the files are, you know, who's trained in it. And so it, it turns into this amazing strength builder. And then going through it, the leadership team is now trained to roll down and do it at the next level down. And I like to do it in phases. I would never do it full company wide because what you do at one level,
then it affects the next level down and you want to make sure you've got it right so that you're not going to somebody next level down be like, okay, here's your thing. And it's like, no, wait, I'm going to actually keep this because of this, this, and you're going to get this instead. And then you've got to go back. live with it a couple of weeks. But the business owner did say it was a transformative 30 days.
Jen Hamilton (17:42)
sounds like it. Well, I imagine if you asked every single employee and team member, they would say the same thing. Cause there's a huge difference in showing up at work in a cloudy environment versus a sunshiny environment and being able to know there's not like one of the things I heard you say, and I see this as well is that down the hall, what are they doing over there? You know, like that, that understanding that it's not them trying to sabotage me or they don't
Diane Mentzer (17:48)
Mm-hmm.
right.
Jen Hamilton (18:11)
have a clue or there's something wrong with them. But, but it oftentimes, and I see this too, what's behind it all is they're just not clear on who's doing what. The communication is what's missing. Not oftentimes the, they have bad intentions or they're trying to mess you up or they're not smart enough or they don't know how to do it. Yes, of course some of that can happen, but I think it's way more rare than we see.
Diane Mentzer (18:29)
Great.
Jen Hamilton (18:39)
we actually see in practice. think we feel like that that happens all the time, but I don't think when you actually do the kind of deep dive work that you do and help them really see who does what, who's relying on who, what does it look like to hand them off so that they can just run with it? I mean, I think of like a Olympic relay, you know, if you don't have that baton, right? Of course they're going to drop it, right? Or if you are
Diane Mentzer (18:44)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Jen Hamilton (19:07)
waiting with the baton behind you and it's never placed in your hand just right. Of course you're gonna drop it. So I think there's so much power in what you're saying and what I've seen too is just being super clear on it. It helps them feel like, I can trust my coworker. I can trust my leader. It's not a matter of assuming the worst. They start to assume the best. No wonder it's sunshiny and productive and time-saved.
Diane Mentzer (19:33)
Right.
Jen Hamilton (19:37)
It's incredible the simplicity, if you will, with what you're talking about. But yet I find that most people just don't take the time. And that's one of the biggest hurdles. What are some other hurdles you see around people not putting in the effort to make this happen?
Diane Mentzer (19:47)
Right.
Yeah, I think the biggest one, well, I think the biggest one is nobody thinks about it. Like it's not even, it's not even on their radar. And you think about like a company that's grown from five people to 20 people or 20 people to 40 people. Like what people are doing has changed. And you, you know, you've raised some people up. Well, they probably didn't fully let go of their old job because they were training somebody. So that was a big part of it too. As we went through, it's like, β you know,
here's some tasks that really should be handed off or could we automate or does this make sense for AI? It helps you think about and look at these things a little bit differently. And, β but yeah, I think it's just really not on people's radar or it feels overwhelming, but it's, there's no big overwhelming change, right? It's not a new system. not putting, we're not revamping all your processes. Your processes will run more effectively just by
clarifying who owns what and, you know, where the handoffs are, automatically things will run more smoothly. And that it's really about like the incremental change and just refining. You've got stuff that's working well. You've gotten to a certain level and it's like refining that to get to the next level. I think so many people just don't realize that even to think about it and then when they do, what the difference it would really make.
The data is 20 to 30 percent of annual revenue lost to inefficiencies, typical companies. That's a lot. 20 to 30 percent data on miscommunications is 12 to 15,000 per employee per year. So you've got a 10 person company that's 150,000, know, 120 to 150,000 or 130 to 150,000 a year just for miscommunications, internal miscommunications.
Jen Hamilton (21:29)
Oof. Oof. Yeah. Yeah.
Diane Mentzer (21:52)
And then that's not even getting into art. Does that mean there's product things and what are our opportunity costs because we're so focused and we're doing all this double work that we're missing out on these opportunities that we're not seeing. And yeah, so there's β It ties to lots of things, it's so powerful.
Jen Hamilton (22:12)
Well, I think that's one of the things I'm glad you said what gets in their way. But part of what gets in their way, and I'm glad we're putting light to this conversation, is how expensive it is not to do it. And how energy draining it is not to do it. And how you can actually lose your good people by not doing this. And that's really expensive. Then the other thing too is
Diane Mentzer (22:32)
Yeah.
Jen Hamilton (22:37)
when you are recruiting, if you've worked really hard, mean, nowadays it's so hard to get great people and you bring them into an environment that has that underlying tone of tension and distrust and feeling like people are sabotaging each other, great people aren't gonna stay in that environment.
Diane Mentzer (22:55)
Yeah, that's absolutely true. you did touch on a couple other things that, you know, that whole, yeah, losing your people, keeping your people, that it reminds me that too, that generationally things are different now. And
millennials and Gen Z, Gen Z in particular, want a lot more structure and clarity than Gen X. Gen X is like, okay, here's some things, go figure it out. And you've got smart people who will absolutely figure it out. But you're pulling in slightly different directions, that can be really tough. β But the Gen Z, especially in millennials, they want to see accountability at the top, as well as from them.
So when everybody's on the same page with who's doing what, and you've gotten their input as you craft their roles, as you refine their roles, people are much, you start to create that proactive accountability. So instead of coming in and saying, you're responsible for this, here are your things, do these, these, it's like you've crafted this together and they're like, okay, I see, this is my thing. This is how it fits in with the other pieces here. This is how I'm contributing to the mission.
So my, and this is, yeah, okay, now I understand more about what my boss is doing and how that ties into everything. And you're much more, you start to hold yourself accountable. You see what success looks like and want to achieve it versus not being sure and just kind of, I think some of the data is only 45 % of the US workforce, this is according to Gallup, is clear on what's expected of them at work.
Jen Hamilton (24:38)
Oh my gosh, then they're losing 20 to 30 percent of their revenue to that.
Diane Mentzer (24:43)
Yeah,
yeah, yeah.
Jen Hamilton (24:47)
Well, that's
how we can solve our economic problems. Just being clear on our rules.
Diane Mentzer (24:52)
Yeah,
it really makes a big difference. It really, it really does.
Jen Hamilton (24:57)
Wow, that's actually quite sad. I'm glad you brought... Yeah.
Diane Mentzer (25:01)
The saddest one though, the saddest one is only 27
% of employees feel appreciated at work.
Jen Hamilton (25:08)
Ahhhh
Diane Mentzer (25:09)
And so
when I do this role clarity work, I'm also weaving in communication strategies and things like that about how you, how you help people feel appreciated, how you, you know, assume you, and I don't like to use the word assume because of what's all associated, but just like operate from the expect, expect that everybody has good intentions. If they don't, they're going to show that to you. And that's a different conversation. And. But 90 % of the time they do.
and they just don't know how to act within the framework. also creating the role clarity gives you the opportunity if somebody is not performing, if they're not stepping up, if they really are slacking, that's gonna stand out. And you've got the documentation, the structure you need to say, hey, this isn't a good fit. Because this is the job, right? This is the job you've helped, this is the job and you can stay and do this job or you cannot, but.
It becomes their choice then, whether or not to do that versus you trying to say, hey, you've got to do this. You've co-created that and they either accept it and stay or don't.
Jen Hamilton (26:16)
Yeah.
John Tyreman (26:24)
If running your business feels like herding cats, we can help. At Hamilton COOs, we work with visionary leaders to turn an overwhelming operation into a well-oiled machine. Visit HamiltonCOOs.com to see how you can grind less while your business grows. And now, back to the show.
Jen Hamilton (26:47)
I, you've said that twice now, the co-creation. And I think that's a part you, um, you mentioned, but it's so powerful because there's a big difference between coming in and just telling people, especially when they've been in the job for a while, if you're doing this role clarity or something starts to go off the rails and not just saying, okay, this is your job, but actually co-creating it. I wonder if you could speak a little bit more to that co-creation process.
Diane Mentzer (27:15)
Sure. And this is especially true because I work with leadership teams and, know, the CEO, COO duo. So these are people who, you know, have been around. They, you know, this is not entry level people that, and you still want to do it with entry level, but like, especially when you've got somebody who's more senior and you come in and you're trying to say, well, this is like, they are seeing things that you aren't, even if you're the COO, you're leading the leadership team.
They're seeing things that you're not, because they're working more directly with the people that are in the next level down. So everybody is seeing something that somebody else isn't within the company just because they're interacting with the processes, the tools, the clients, each other differently. so acknowledging that it's not about, I'm right, this is how we do it, you know, 100%. I've got blind spots.
Every COO has blind spots, every CEO has blind spots. And so by doing that co-creation, you're capitalizing on everybody's strengths. You're making sure that you're accounting for everything. It's like putting yourself through the wringer and that sounds bad, like putting yourself so that nobody else is gonna catch these things, right? You're not gonna have as many surprise.
issues popping up because you've looked at things from different angles and you've listened to your people and your people are there for a reason and they care. know, I hear it frustrates me when I see some of these like experts saying to business owners, nobody's going to care about your company as much as you do. And I just completely disagree with that. They care about it differently, right? Nobody else
And nobody else understands what you understand from your level and cares about those specific things that you care about at your level. But I have worked in so many teams in different companies as an employee. And I see it with people that I work with through the coaching and advising. They care. They care about their job. They want to do a good job. They care about the people. They want to be making a difference. Like people want meaning in their life and in their work.
And when you help give them that, they're all in for you. And right, they don't understand it and don't care about it in the same way, but they can absolutely be very, very dedicated and committed to making the business work for you and them and the customers and everybody else. that's a part of why I'm a big fan of co-creation.
Jen Hamilton (29:57)
Yes, absolutely. Me too. Because it's not just like, I got to do this so they feel a part of it. It actually causes innovation, understanding. Things change that never would have changed if you didn't ask the questions about what's it really like? What's really happening out there? What do you think it should be happening? There's so many great ways to, as you're getting that clarity.
Diane Mentzer (30:12)
Right.
Jen Hamilton (30:22)
to enlighten yourself as a leader. In fact, if you close the door and it just has to be your way, you will be stagnant. Your competitors will pass you. Because those who are engaging their people, they're giving them that clarity. They're saying like, you're in this seat because you belong in this seat. You're making this part of our mission better or this part of our goals hit.
Diane Mentzer (30:23)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Jen Hamilton (30:45)
It allows for them to then, like you said, take on that identity of like, is what I own. This is what I get to make happen. This is where I'm seen, where I'm appreciated, where I'm important. And it all just comes together. But if you don't do that, it's not just like, cause they need to be feeling like acknowledged. Yes, we all do. Every human does. But at the same time, you're missing out on a huge benefit to productivity, to profitability, to new ideas. They're not going to.
be wanting to share with you about something that could really tank the results if they don't feel like that they are heard or that they're important or they're clear on like, well, no one's even gonna really listen to me. So I think it's really powerful what you're saying.
Diane Mentzer (31:29)
Yeah.
Yep, I agree with you 100%. And I know a term that you love to use is like guardrails, right? You know, so like defining this role is you're not boxing people in and it's not, β it's not, it's actually creating freedom. Like people understand what's expected, where their space is, how they interact with others. And it doesn't mean that somebody is not ever going to say, I noticed something over here in that match. But they understand sort of like their, like what they're responsible for.
how and how that all fits in. you're giving people like guardrails β not shackles, right?
Jen Hamilton (32:07)
Yeah,
I love that. Yeah, it's it and that's what we need. You're right in terms of our Gen Z and our millennials. They just need direction. They may say like I want the freedom, but they want the freedom within those guardrails. They want freedom within direction and understanding how they play in that. I want to I want to get some actionable items for our listeners.
Diane Mentzer (32:30)
Okay.
Jen Hamilton (32:30)
So I would love to hear from you. What's something someone can start to do around this idea of role clarity, especially as leaders? Because this is where we're talking about the importance of leaders. So what can leaders start to do to just take action to get some of that role clarity?
Diane Mentzer (32:50)
Yeah, and I know it can sound, it can feel a little bit overwhelming to like think about doing the whole leadership team at once. And, but there are a few things that, that are just really very easy to start thinking about. And I'll, I'll start at the top and kind of work my way down a little bit, but it really is for that founder CEO to be really clear on what they absolutely are going to keep.
What they're willing to let go of if it's not the whole thing what portion of a thing but really defining like this is what this is what I'm gonna do this is where I have the final say these are the things that I own because all the support in the entire company is based on that and it's hardly ever defined and It doesn't mean that you're like I said, it's it's creating freedom right? It's creating freedom for you to shine in your areas
And for business owners to understand there is no right or wrong definition. And even if something isn't in your sweet spot, you're just not comfortable giving it up yet. Don't try to give it up and then keep pulling it back. Just say, Hey, I'm not comfortable giving this up yet. I'm going to hold onto it. And then maybe you and your second in command COO can talk about, could I help you with a piece of that? Could we gradually transition it? You can get into all of that, but just be honest with yourself and your team about what
And that takes some introspection. It's not super easy, but just start doing little pieces of it. Even if it's just like five things, like here are five things that are totally mine. Okay, we understand that. Being really clear. β And for the COO, you can help your CEO get to this by questions that you ask as you're starting to work on things. okay, so don't think about, I'm going to go back and fix everything and we're going to get it all.
But just like starting with this project today or, here's a new initiative that we're going to do. Okay. What part are you going to own? What part am I going to own? Asking them questions as you see things that they're doing that you feel like would really fit better in your seat. Say, you know, Hey, I noticed you're still doing this in terms of level of importance to the company. think it's take, you know, it might be taking away from your time, your ability to do this other thing. That's really important for you to do. Is there a piece of it can help you with, you know, help them start to.
trust you and be able to make those things. So it doesn't always have to cut, you can help them help themselves, right? And it's the same thing then for working with the leadership team, just start with that, whatever project you're starting today, start being clear around roles and handoffs around that. And then just start branching it out a little bit. It doesn't have to be a big everything at once.
Jen Hamilton (35:41)
It's so important for the two pieces that you said. One is pieces and just getting started with something. So I think it's really important to realize that it isn't the whole thing. Because I think a lot of people are afraid when we talk about delegation or when you talk about having someone take something on and their role is also sometimes their identity. So if they identify themselves as like, this is what I own, it can be too much.
I like just saying it's just like start with something. So I love that you said this and I say the same thing. What's a piece like one part of a bigger process that you just hate or just like if you could never do it again, but you can trust that someone else will do it just as well or better than you. That's that's a great place to start. That piece of it is better than asking for an entire project.
Diane Mentzer (36:38)
Yeah, and β one of my clients, one of my CEO clients that I work with, she, you we were looking at her role and trying, she's growing her company or looking at her role and how we're doing all this. And there was something that she was doing that she felt she was gonna be doing forever. And we talked about it and I talked a little bit more and I'm like, well, could somebody do part of it? What, what, you know, how could we break this down? Could we get you some help so it's not all on you? And the more we talked about it,
she realized that she could hand off 90 % and still feel comfortable. Because a lot of that is to like, why do you feel comfortable and what do you need to feel comfortable? β So she realized she could hand off 90 % and it gave her a big chunk of time back every week because all of a sudden she wasn't doing this anymore.
And I did a workshop the other day and I was talking about this and one of the CEOs in the workshop was like, my gosh, you know, I've been doing this menial task forever because it's just always been me. This is not how I should be spending my time, you know, like, and it was kind of the same thing. He's giving 90 % of it off and he's just going to keep a teeny bit of oversight. So he still feels comfortable that it's being done correctly.
but not so in the details with it. And it doesn't just free up time, it frees up emotional space. And one of the things that we look at when I do the role clarity pieces too is like, it draining? Does it drain you? Does it give you energy? β How do you feel about your proficiency with it? Because we often put off things where we don't feel we're great at doing them and all of this ties into everything else.
especially in those situations where you have people filling multiple seats, then as you're thinking about building out your team, it's like, well, they hate this portion of the work. So that, you we shouldn't load them up with more of that. Like as we make shifts in our accountability chart and grow, that's what we should take away from them. And when I worked for that company, we almost really blew it because we had somebody who was hired as an analyst and was excellent, excellent.
excellent at it. Found out she loved recruiting because she had took that on for, you we needed some help and she took on this recruiting. Found out she loved recruiting. In our minds in the leadership team, we were thinking, okay, we need to hire somebody who's going to take this other piece of HR from somebody else they're going to take on recruiting. And when we started having the conversations about building out the roles, this was later when we weren't just in the accountability chart phase, building out the roles,
she loved the recruiting and we didn't realize how much she loved that and was really looking to get rid of the analyst piece. So it changed how we had to think about our people and what seats we were moving around as we grew. And it could have been, you know, it have made her life miserable if we hadn't had that conversation.
Jen Hamilton (39:43)
And had a good person quit. Yeah, this is not a one time story. I hear this all the time. And part of it is just getting in conversation. Being able to have this conversation and be aware of what is the role, not just what is the role they're in, but what is the role they want. Very powerful. Okay, we could probably go on forever, but it's time to flip the mic. So you get to ask me anything.
Diane Mentzer (39:45)
Yeah.
Yes. Right.
Yeah. Yeah.
that's the end.
Yeah, so yeah, I loved it when you said that I was going to get to ask you anything. And because I know you are a great storyteller and you love stories and people love hearing about stories and examples. β Because you've been in so many different companies, what is either, you know, either a nightmare story or a success story, but someplace where you've seen role clarity being an issue in a company's success.
Jen Hamilton (40:42)
good one. So it's interesting because I'm gonna actually give a nightmare story and there is a company I'm gonna be very vague but it is real company. I'll say that much. And this is a case of where the owners we were talking about would not let go and yet complained all the time, can't trust my people. β
and would butt in, like wouldn't even let them contribute at a meeting because it's like, no, no, that's not how we do it. No, that's not like, this is how we do it. This is how we do it. And so they couldn't even speak up. And to be able to say this owner would just interrupt it, interrupt. And what I started to realize is that it was like a web that just went throughout the organization. And what I started to see is that
He was in every role. It was like 75 people in this company. So you can't possibly be in every role, but there wasn't that clarity for the individual. And so the way they did the role is they would do what they think they're supposed to do. And he would come in and fix it or meddle with it. And, and sadly it caused a lot of challenges in his, of course, relationships with team.
Good people would quit, clients would quit because they're not getting the results that they are promised because only one person held, which is the owner, held everything in his head. And then what was really β unfortunate too is he's a human being too. It was hurting his marriage, his relationship with his children, his ability to truly take a vacation, which he needed so badly because he was so overworked, right?
Diane Mentzer (42:13)
Right.
Right?
Jen Hamilton (42:37)
And so the,
and this is sort of a tale of, um, woe without a good solution. We had to part ways because as much as I tried to bring in the role of clarity and push to say, let's get it clear. Let's get this out of your head and put it in a manual, put it in training, all of the things we can do to pull it off of him. There was something in him that just would not let go.
And if that's the case, there is no change, there's only worse. Because of course he wants to grow. Who doesn't want to grow?
Diane Mentzer (43:12)
Right. Right. Well, and
he's made by doing that, he's making it impossible for him to ever sell his business. Right. He's going to hit a ceiling and he's never going to be able to sell it because if everything's reliant on him, the buyer gets nothing. Yeah. Yeah. I, yeah, I know. Yeah. It's, it is sad when things come, come up like that.
Jen Hamilton (43:20)
Yeah, such a great point.
Right. Right. It's not valuable at all. Yeah.
Diane Mentzer (43:37)
We didn't really get into it a whole lot today, but like that phase of operations, like what are you, what is the business owner willing to let go of? And I know I talked to one, one company where they've been through four COOs in less than a year because everyone would come in and the business owner wouldn't let them do anything. And the
Jen Hamilton (43:51)
Ugh.
Diane Mentzer (44:00)
They also did the owner's wife who was like, were like co CEOs, didn't believe in role clarity or telling people what to do. Didn't believe in telling what people, people what to do. She wanted everybody to have free free and do. And so they had like huge turnover and they had a great product and a stable market and they were, they were tanking because they couldn't, you know, it was just so disruptive for the team and the people.
We need to end on a better note than this, Jen. What's a good success story?
Jen Hamilton (44:30)
I
Well, I think
one of the things we will end on is hope. We're going to have you come back. We're going to dig in more into those stages to understand like, where are you at in your business? So I'm going to have you back on and I'm looking forward to that conversation in the future. It's going to be good. It's going to be good.
Diane Mentzer (44:45)
Ooh, me too. Yes. Yes, I love
geeking out with you on all this stuff. It's just so wonderful to talk to somebody who like gets it, you know?
Jen Hamilton (44:51)
I know it's-
Absolutely.
feel the same. mean, it's, it's incredible. The things that you have been able to come in as that coach, as that guide with the COO. So you are a different kind of fractional COO. You're not sitting in there doing the role, but you really are mentoring and guiding and coaching the COO and that relationship, you know, to make sure that that is a successful relationship. if.
Diane Mentzer (45:12)
Right.
Jen Hamilton (45:21)
If people are looking at how can I reach out to Diane, I see I've got this need. We really could use some role clarity or we could really use some help with our COO being more effective. Or maybe they're new, like you said, just promoted to this position and it's a hard position. So having that mentorship and guidance is so critical.
Diane Mentzer (45:40)
Yeah, there are
so many nuances that aren't really talked about in because all your relationships change when you're promoted from within. And you know, how do you get seen differently? And it's not just the tactical parts of the job, but it's it's all the interactions and everything changes. Yeah, LinkedIn is probably the the is a great place to find me. I post content a lot on LinkedIn.
β I also have a free five day email course with just like bite-sized nuggets for COOs and they can sign up for that on my LinkedIn or my website. think I put my website in the under my name here. Yeah. Yeah. And it links out to my LinkedIn, but I'm very active on LinkedIn. That's a great way to connect and get a feel a bit more of a feel for me and how I support people.
Jen Hamilton (46:07)
Great content.
We'll put in the show notes too.
Well, Hamilton CEOs is a place to find amazing people like Diane and I'm just so grateful for you to come share your wisdom, share like real stories, real tactics, real solutions to problems that probably people now after hearing us talk about how just disruptive and expensive it is to not have role clarity. I hope that those listeners will take some action.
Take some of the things that you said and reach out to you to get some help if they can't do it on their own. Thank you so much for being here today.
Diane Mentzer (47:06)
Thank you.
Yeah, thanks Jen. And I really hope that they will go to your website and download some of amazing resources. And I just love how you have built the community for fractional COOs and it's like the place to go. β On my Facebook memories the other day, popped up that two years ago we were out in California meeting in person for the first time and just how awesome that was and just to see what you've
been able to build and create and the amazing community that you've built. It's just, it's an honor to be part of it and it's huge honor to be here today with you.
Jen Hamilton (47:47)
love being able to have folks as our listeners meet my cool friends.
Diane Mentzer (47:53)
β I have a cool friend.
Jen Hamilton (47:56)
Absolutely brilliant and really
just amazing, such a giver. So thanks for being here today.
Diane Mentzer (48:01)
Thanks, Jen.
