Jen Hamilton (00:21)
Okay, welcome. My guest today is Hans. Hans, I'm so excited to have you as my guest on the podcast today. Welcome.
Hans Kirkegaard (00:28)
Thank you, John. It's always good to see you. One of my favorite people.
Jen Hamilton (00:32)
I swear I did not pay him to say that.
Hans Kirkegaard (00:35)
Ha
Jen Hamilton (00:36)
Well, Enhanced, before we get in and get to know you a little bit more, I am super grateful for we have known each other for quite a while. We started working together at the same firm as fractional COOs and our paths have continued to expand into other opportunities. We still have this deep connection around the work we love to do to help businesses run better. But I also so
Jen Hamilton (00:59)
greatly appreciate that any conversation I have with you, I learn. I feel smarter when we're done. And I know sometimes you will say, no, no, no, but I do really
Hans Kirkegaard (01:09)
Ha
Jen Hamilton (01:10)
appreciate you being here because I'm excited for our listeners to hear your brilliance. Like I am so lucky and so grateful that our relationship continues long after we work together.
Hans Kirkegaard (01:20)
Well, thank you so much. I always appreciate our time together and I always walk away smarter. So I always love to be, you know, I love to listen and learn from others in the room because nobody is always the smartest person.
Jen Hamilton (01:37)
Together we are much better than on our own.
Hans Kirkegaard (01:40)
Exactly.
Jen Hamilton (01:40)
Well, thank you for being in here today. Okay, let's have people get to know how amazing you are like I know how amazing you are. We're gonna start with some fun questions. And as you know, we like to be that sidekick to these amazing superheroes, these business owners who are out there doing good work and helping so many families and teams and everything. So as every superhero that has a good sidekick,
Jen Hamilton (02:04)
The heroes have an origin story, but I want to hear your origin story. How did you go from whatever you were doing in the trenches to now really be this advisor and COO on a mission?
Hans Kirkegaard (02:16)
Well, without going back 40 years, my wife and I owned a business for 15 years. We bought three businesses, rolled them into one over the course of 15 years, and then had a strategic buyer exit in 2021. It was not the home run that we drew up on paper 15 years earlier, but it was a solid single.
Hans Kirkegaard (02:41)
I was very quickly after that sale introduced to an opportunity to join a SaaS based startup and the opportunity was to come in as the number two and I met this CEO founder whose head was on a swivel. had, you know, most visionary CEOs have 10 new ideas every day
Hans Kirkegaard (03:05)
He had 10 new ideas every hour. you know, everything was always in motion. And I'm like, I love this opportunity. I love this, but I'm not quite sure how I'm going to work with this guy. Rewinding tape. I read Traction shortly after it came out. But I was self, you know, was running my small little company. We're too small for Traction, right? You know, I could have...
Hans Kirkegaard (03:30)
Had I been a little bit more humble, I would, I think my business ownership days would have turned out a little bit better if I would have implemented at least some of those core principles. But I dusted off my copy of Traction, re-read it, shared it with this CEO founder, and I said, the only way for the two of us to work together is if we follow this discipline of, you you've got all these great ideas.
Hans Kirkegaard (03:54)
I need to be in there sifting through them because you're going to be a distraction to the rest of the team. I quickly learned that I was a better number two than I was a number one. And even my wife commented on the fact that she's never seen me happier than when I was working in that small SaaS based startup. That came to an end. had taken the help the company go from four
Hans Kirkegaard (04:15)
core focus areas down to one and they are now a leader in their industry in the loading dock and truck yard automation space. And you go, how do you automate a loading dock?
Jen Hamilton (04:28)
you
Hans Kirkegaard (04:29)
And the answer is it's the last part of the warehouse that's not automated. And it's just fascinating.
Hans Kirkegaard (04:35)
The beta customer that we were working with went from being able to ship 400 truckloads a day to 500 truckloads per day with the same number of people. Just by automating that loading dock space and knowing which trucks were coming in, when, which loads were ready to be loaded, how to communicate with the drivers, when, know, to be able to tell them they were at the correct or the wrong loading dock door.
Hans Kirkegaard (05:02)
immediately. So it's just a fascinating experience. So when that came to an end, I was looking for, my next opportunity. And that's when I joined an organization that both Jen and where I met you. And, you know, we were together there for two years ish.
Jen Hamilton (05:20)
Yeah.
Hans Kirkegaard (05:21)
And then at the same time, I started a business in Sarasota, Florida. So now I split time, I joke I'm bi-coastal between
Jen Hamilton (05:32)
you
Hans Kirkegaard (05:32)
the shores of Lake Michigan in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and the Gulf Coast in Sarasota, Longboat Key, Florida. And today I'm running this startup here in Sarasota.
Hans Kirkegaard (05:44)
using the principles of EOS
Jen Hamilton (05:47)
you
Hans Kirkegaard (05:48)
and we are on track to hit our quarterly goals which puts us in line to hit our one year which then puts us in give us the opportunity to look at our three years very attainable and I am not shy about sharing my 10-year Big Hairy Audacious Goal which is if you want to hear it
Jen Hamilton (06:06)
Please.
Hans Kirkegaard (06:07)
We're in the vacation rental property management, short-term rentals. People will call them Airbnb or VRBOs. That's Kleenex to facial tissue. We're in the short-term
Jen Hamilton (06:16)
Hmm.
Hans Kirkegaard (06:17)
rental game. But the 10-year big hairy audacious goal is 433 properties under management. That averaged $54,000 a year in gross rental income. That'll give me a business that's north of $25 million a year in revenue and drops $2 million a year to the company bottom line. That is where we will be on June 30th.
Hans Kirkegaard (06:34)
2032.
Jen Hamilton (06:35)
Powerful. Woo. I like we need a mic drop. I don't have a mic drop.
Hans Kirkegaard (06:37)
Yeah.
Hans Kirkegaard (06:42)
I share that willingly and often every opportunity I can get because the more people you tell that in that back of the brain peer pressure says, I really got to do that because I've told so many people and I do not want to fail. So
Jen Hamilton (06:58)
Mmm.
Hans Kirkegaard (06:59)
and it helps in repeating that also.
Hans Kirkegaard (07:02)
keeps you on track to make sure that you are staying you're not taking that those detours that some company owners do they see a bright shiny light and they go off on it but it is a it is a big diversion from where they should be going and I don't know if you want to get the you've heard all of these lines before you know the significance of having that 10-year big hairy audacious skull is
Hans Kirkegaard (07:28)
Yogi Berra and Harry Carey, one of them said one, one said the other. When you get to a fork in the road, take it.
Hans Kirkegaard (07:35)
The other line was, careful if you don't know where you're going, because you're going to get there.
Hans Kirkegaard (07:40)
And the importance of having a keeping your eye on that long term goal really is so significant. And I tell that that the Hans Kierkegaard version of that is if you lived for many years in East Hampton, New York on the eastern end of Long Island and you woke up one morning, we're going to go visit Jen in San Diego. You were going to drive to San Diego.
Hans Kirkegaard (08:02)
When you get on the road that day, you know where you're going to stop and get your first tank of gas. You know where you're going to stop and get your first meal on the road. You've likely planned your first night where you're going to spend your first night on the road. And you also know when you hit Manhattan, you cannot take a sharp right turn and go north to Montreal or take a sharp left turn and go all the way to Miami because neither of those destinations, although very enjoyable,
Hans Kirkegaard (08:29)
they're not on your way to San Diego.
Jen Hamilton (08:31)
Hmm.
Hans Kirkegaard (08:31)
So you need to keep your eye on the fact that you are on that path. I do allow for, maybe there's a reason that you take what I call the short, soft left turn
Jen Hamilton (08:44)
Mm-hmm.
Hans Kirkegaard (08:44)
to Philadelphia. Maybe you're going to avoid some road construction and it's actually faster. Maybe. Maybe there's
Jen Hamilton (08:49)
Thank
Hans Kirkegaard (08:50)
something in Philly that is going to give you some unique
Hans Kirkegaard (08:54)
skill, talent, knowledge, something is there that is going to accelerate your path to San Diego. So small deviations, measured, calculated, know, understand that what's the purpose, why are we getting off a little bit off of the most direct path.
Hans Kirkegaard (09:11)
can it accelerate you? To pick on another California opportunity, if you got into the Elon Musk Tesla wind tunnel that he's told that people are going to be able to take a four hour commute into 15 minutes, if there's a tunnel entrance somewhere along the way, that maybe there is a true acceleration point to get you there faster. But it's staying
Hans Kirkegaard (09:39)
What are we doing here? Why are we doing this? And what is the end goal really look like? What does that investment mean? Investment of time and investment of resources. What do we really need to do to be able, do we need to bring on that next teammate in that specific role? So I know I've been talking a lot. I'm seeing you smile. So I think we're still on target. I think I'm still answering the question that you asked.
Jen Hamilton (10:02)
Yeah,
Jen Hamilton (10:03)
it's very helpful to for listeners and a reminder for all of us. We know this right? We know from a car point of view point A to point B. There's plenty ways to get there, especially when you're going cross country. So I appreciate this analogy and in reality in business when you're talking about that.
Jen Hamilton (10:20)
visionary that had a hundred different or ten different ideas and an hour instead of a day. Those are real. We get lured into something else. So it's very helpful to say, okay, but you're not going to get to the bigger picture. Where are we going and why? And so I appreciate you sharing it. I want to get back to your superpowers. If you had a, cause you said you love being in that second seat and it was that right hand to the leader as do I.
Jen Hamilton (10:48)
What would your COO superpower be and what's the name of it and what would it be?
Hans Kirkegaard (10:53)
You know, I'm sure people have much more funny, you know, Marvel character comic strips, but mine is... I'm a MacGyver. And
Jen Hamilton (11:03)
Mmm.
Hans Kirkegaard (11:03)
if, you know, the call back to the television show, the guy that could, you know, woke up in the morning, never knew what challenges were going to be presented. He spent all kinds of time, you know, figuring it out, testing, treat, you know...
Hans Kirkegaard (11:19)
testing and trying and ultimately came up with this creative, efficient, unique solution. Something that all of a sudden it was just easy to do, right? And it was never easy on the surface. You had to watch the whole show to figure out, how's he going to figure it out this time?
Jen Hamilton (11:37)
Yeah.
Hans Kirkegaard (11:39)
And sometimes it's the...
Hans Kirkegaard (11:41)
it's making the impossible, breaking it down and figuring out. So, in nearly 40 years of my professional career, I've done a number of different things. And you develop pieces of knowledge here and there. And maybe I'm not a...
Hans Kirkegaard (11:57)
know, a foot wide and a mile deep. I'm more of a foot deep and a mile wide in terms of knowledge, but that gives you the ability to see things, you know, be able to see around some corners, be able to see what some of those unintended or intended consequences are going to be and be able to piece together, bring people together, and so that be able to tell the story of, you know, we've got these 15 choices and
Hans Kirkegaard (12:24)
You know, if we put them all together, you know, we say yes, we say no, you know, we figure out from multiple choice questions, know, what's the right best path? How's that going to impact, you know, whether it's people, whether it's financial, whether it's operations, whether it's sales, whether it's HR, you know, what is it?
Hans Kirkegaard (12:50)
What are everybody's objectives? Who's going to stand on what hill?
Hans Kirkegaard (12:55)
who what's going to be good enough for everybody in the organization how do you find the best path forward how do you bring everybody together and get everybody to go now I understand why I can't have everything I want because that would affect somebody else incredibly negatively and you know nobody wants that you know so you know it's it's figuring out how to satisfy the multiple stakeholders that are affected by a decision
Hans Kirkegaard (13:19)
and finding in time being able to find that creative best solution.
Jen Hamilton (13:24)
MacGyver so fits you. I love that.
Hans Kirkegaard (13:27)
You
Jen Hamilton (13:28)
Let's talk about who are those ideal clients that you love to keep safe at night as that very nice sidekick superhero MacGyver guy.
Hans Kirkegaard (13:38)
Yeah,
Hans Kirkegaard (13:39)
you it's probably my blind spot, but you know, I think I'm very industry agnostic. I truly believe that 80 % of any company's problems are shared amongst every other company. then, know, 10 of the remaining 20%, half of them, so 10 % can be solved with the, you know, the
Hans Kirkegaard (14:02)
the right person coming in and then another 10 percent the last 10 percent you know might take that MacGyver who can pull it answers questions typically already reside within the company and you just need to figure out you need to figure out who in the organization already has the knowledge they just don't know what this they just don't know how to apply it they don't
Hans Kirkegaard (14:24)
They don't see that connectivity between their knowledge and the solution to the problem. And being able to pull that out of the, you know, work with the teams and be able to pull that out to be able to get everybody to go, huh, God, we've got really good people here who are really smart. We just didn't know how smart they were.
Jen Hamilton (14:41)
That is one of your superpowers is to be able to pull out the genius and others and then bring them together. That's very cool.
Hans Kirkegaard (14:48)
And
Hans Kirkegaard (14:48)
that is one of the things that you've seen me in action at times where I am very frequently the last to chime in. And I do it from a standpoint of, I really am excited to listen and learn to the others in the room. Because I come into an issue, I'm not necessarily just somebody raises the question, I don't immediately know the answer.
Hans Kirkegaard (15:09)
but listening to other people's perspective and listening to their experiences and hearing what their, sometimes their success, sometimes their less than successful experiences, understanding what dominoes get tipped over if you do the wrong thing, and then being able to distill that through and figure out, and I think I very frequently...
Hans Kirkegaard (15:32)
have come up and said, well, you what I heard from Jen and what I heard from Tom and what I heard from others in the room, you know, I really think that this is the cleanest path forward. And yeah, you know, I do enjoy listening and then trying to put the pieces of the puzzle together.
Jen Hamilton (15:51)
You are a master at that. You can hear it all and bring it together. that's hard when you're in the moment. So having that gift of you being able to listen and take the different perspectives and bring a whole new element to it is truly powerful. Well, I want to dig into our topic today. We already started to talk a little bit about the power of having the right people. Like you're saying, that's part of it. Having the right people into the different organizations, even within
Jen Hamilton (16:17)
Who do we work with? But let's get into the problem that I see in almost every client. Because if you didn't have this problem, somehow you already have a COO in there. The problem is that we have wrong people in wrong seats. Sometimes it's wrong people, sometimes it's wrong seats, sometimes it's bows. So I wanna talk about what is...
Jen Hamilton (16:40)
happening when people have wrong people in the wrong seats. In other words, what do we see in a business? What's breaking if they ignore wrong people in the wrong seats and just let these wrong people continue?
Hans Kirkegaard (16:53)
You know, wrong seat is really somebody who is not cut out for the work that they need to do. And that should become pretty evident in just getting incomplete or bad work product, right? And those are the people that generally are unhappy in their job because if they were performing
Hans Kirkegaard (17:12)
to their, again, using an EOS term, GWC, if they get it, if they wanted it, and they have the capacity to do it, they generally love doing that type of stuff, and they do it, they make it look really easy. somebody who's outside of their comfort zone and doesn't have the want it to bring it into their comfort zone, or doesn't have the...
Hans Kirkegaard (17:36)
capacity to bring it into their comfort zone. They are likely going to burn out and leave so it becomes turnover. And then the wrong person is...
Hans Kirkegaard (17:46)
I use sales because everybody can understand it.
Hans Kirkegaard (17:49)
no matter what your values in the company are, if you've got your largest salesperson who is not a values fit with the organization, with the rest of the team, they are going to hold the company back.
Hans Kirkegaard (18:00)
and as hard as it is, if they truly are the asshole in the room all the time, you gotta get rid of them. Because nobody... you'll suffer turnover with the people that you would really like to keep and would like to succeed, but that one person will keep stepping on people's fingers, toes, shoulders to keep them down because...
Hans Kirkegaard (18:23)
You know, it's easy to understand in a sales organization because if you've got this guy who's outperforming everybody else, he truly is holding you back. I come at it from when I'm looking to either evaluate people or hire people.
Hans Kirkegaard (18:41)
I lead with values first.
Hans Kirkegaard (18:42)
I very readily share my values almost as frequently as I do my 10 year big hairy audacious skull. It's help first, do the right thing, have an abundance mindset. We can't be everything to everybody all the time. And tied to that, tied to help first and do the right thing with an abundance mindset, if you find that person who
Hans Kirkegaard (19:07)
You know, don't, yeah, we're just not the right fit. But you know what? I think my competitor down the street, across town, in the next town over, I think that might be a good solution for you. You know, that kind of thing then starts to generate those positive feelings. People are going to say nice things about you. you know, he sent, he sent business. He helped me out. I didn't have to go chase my tail. I found the right solution for me.
Hans Kirkegaard (19:31)
related to the salesman who is not the nicest person in the room. Sorry about swearing earlier. But no barking, having a smile on your face when you're under pressure. And then always in our business, always give an effort worthy of a five star review. And I believe if we do those five things, we will generate our own good karma. Now people have said there's no such thing as good karma. I'm like, I don't understand that.
Hans Kirkegaard (19:54)
I don't want to say karma is always bad. Good things are, I believe if we do those five things, good things will naturally happen to us.
Jen Hamilton (20:03)
Yes, yes.
Hans Kirkegaard (20:04)
And, you know, and I, and I use, I share the values willingly and I lead with it when I'm hiring someone. And when I'm, when I'm evaluating somebody and I have in the last three and a half years, I have let
Hans Kirkegaard (20:20)
people go because of values misalignment.
Jen Hamilton (20:23)
Yeah.
Hans Kirkegaard (20:23)
and I did let one go because of GWC and she was an awesome values match, she thanked me when I let her go. to this day I can still call her and ask her and she willingly takes my call and says, is everybody at the company? She just, so, you know, I...
Hans Kirkegaard (20:41)
the significance of values, I look at it and go, I bucket people in three categories. The people that you're closest with, that you've known for a very long time.
Hans Kirkegaard (20:54)
there people that you call up on a Thursday night or a Friday night and go, we don't have any plans. You guys want to go grab dinner. Those people that you call up at the last minute and half the time they say, yeah, yeah, we can meet you in an hour. Those are people that you've known for a long time. There's no exception to the values alignment.
Hans Kirkegaard (21:17)
Then there's people that you've known for more than 10 years and you see them once a year. And I call them some timers. And you see them once a year, you have a good time, you go, yeah, you know what, that was a lot of fun. It was great to see them, great to catch up. And you know what, when we get together next year, that'll be fun too. There's something just on the edge. There's something a little bit off there, but it's not
Jen Hamilton (21:38)
Mm.
Hans Kirkegaard (21:39)
fatal. And the third bucket of people,
Hans Kirkegaard (21:41)
and this is where you know what your values are even if you haven't defined them when you walk up and you meet someone and the first thing you want to do is go home and take a shower
Hans Kirkegaard (21:52)
You know
Jen Hamilton (21:52)
Awesome.
Hans Kirkegaard (21:52)
that person
Hans Kirkegaard (21:53)
just that person for whatever reason just grates you there.
Hans Kirkegaard (21:59)
And every time you see them, you don't cross the room to say hello. They don't cross the room to say hello to you. You might smile and wave, but you go, yeah, I've met him. know what he's up. You don't even know the person, but in the back of your head, you're going, yeah, I don't want to spend any time with him. There's something innately, you are innately aware of bucket number three. You just want, and there is something.
Hans Kirkegaard (22:23)
fatally, fatally different about their values and your values. so the importance of doing that in an employment situation is you've got to have the people on your team that are 100 % in values alignment or they're going to leave because they don't like you or you're going to let them go because you don't like them.
Hans Kirkegaard (22:50)
And whether it's a trust issue, whether it's how they're interacting with the rest of the team, how they're, are they accountable for their scorecard? Are they performing or do they always have an excuse? Dog ate my homework kind of answer, right? It's just one of those, eventually that
Hans Kirkegaard (23:08)
that comes out even if you thought you were in and that's where I was the one person you know she was with us for less than two months and that was that was very quickly a bet you know my god what did I do and and that was my decision right and and then I had another person who was with us for a year and a half and at the end of the day it was valious.
Hans Kirkegaard (23:31)
And I just, you know, I know you've heard this before, but you know, I've got a way of looking at someone when I've made a decision. And I, and I, I've heard other people say it different, you know, people all want to give it explanations. Have you done the coaching? You have to get well, you do the, you you let down, you didn't perform, you didn't do this, you didn't blah, blah, blah. And my perspective on that is you're only muddying the water.
Jen Hamilton (23:56)
Thank
Hans Kirkegaard (23:56)
yes you need to
Hans Kirkegaard (23:57)
do the coaching yes you need to do all of that stuff but when you've made the decision my line is
Jen Hamilton (24:02)
you
Hans Kirkegaard (24:03)
and I and I I have made a decision
Jen Hamilton (24:05)
Thank
Hans Kirkegaard (24:06)
that our time together has come to an end and that gives the person nothing to question gives them you know they they can they can tell you they don't like you but you've not in making that statement that's
Hans Kirkegaard (24:20)
that's more on what their feelings are not what your feelings are you've made it you kept it plain simple the decision is final you need to only use the word I have made the decision you know you can't make it you can't say the boss has made a difference you know you can't use somebody else somebody you know you can't say they told me about this so therefore yeah just put your big pants big boy pants on and
Hans Kirkegaard (24:47)
you know, make a decision, you know, if you're in that decision, in that position of authority, you have the authority to make that decision on it.
Jen Hamilton (25:17)
I have heard you say that and help so many of us have these difficult conversations because what happens is we think we're doing the right thing. think through our heart, I don't want to hurt their feelings or whatever and it hurts much more being muddy as you said. It hurts much more trying to make something work that isn't going to work. I do agree with you. It's good to do the coaching. It's good to do the training and good to try different seats.
Jen Hamilton (25:41)
But when it comes to values, there's not much coaching you can do with values. And I also appreciate you're not saying that their values are wrong. Even those people you're like, I do not want to know. It's different. You said the word different. When something doesn't work where you're working, you can go find work somewhere else where it does work. And by
Hans Kirkegaard (26:02)
Exactly.
Jen Hamilton (26:03)
us letting them go, they have that freedom to go there.
Jen Hamilton (26:06)
want to dig into an area that is very hard for people to let go. When we're talking about wrong people in wrong seats, sometimes they are in the right seat, but they're the wrong people. So those super high performers that are definitely not values aligned, what would be advice to an owner, somebody who is trying...
Jen Hamilton (26:27)
to avoid the inevitable of like, but they do so good, they perform so good and they're so toxic. How do you help them think through this? it's hard.
Hans Kirkegaard (26:36)
The answer to that is the sooner that you make the decision the better the organization is going to be. The sooner you make the tough decision. Do you take a little bit time to game play it in your head?
Hans Kirkegaard (26:48)
You you said it earlier and I agree 100 percent. You can't teach values and if it's a values misalignment, they're a cancer to the organization today, they're going to be a cancer tomorrow, it's going to get worse next week, it's going to be a lot worse next month, next quarter, next year. It's going to be progressive, know, allowing someone to run roughshod over the organization never works well.
Hans Kirkegaard (27:10)
you cannot tolerate bad behavior because what you are doing is preventing everybody else from succeeding and the rest of your team may...
Hans Kirkegaard (27:20)
your values are what you allow to happen within the organization. So even though you may have your values up on the wall, you may share them willingly. If you are not
Hans Kirkegaard (27:33)
say policing them you know if if if someone is allowed to behave outside of the the values everybody else in the organization says he's you know the CEO is not serious about him and you know and if you haven't you know when I was starting this company in 2022
Hans Kirkegaard (27:50)
I prepared my VTO before I bought the rights to the franchise. you know, so when I wrote out the values with this company in mind, I was a company of one. So these are, you know, and I thought about this next question as I'm preparing my VTO in 2022. And it's...
Hans Kirkegaard (28:13)
the question that you can ask anyone in any company even if their values are undefined if you did what if you did something fill in the blank you would get fired
Jen Hamilton (28:24)
Hmm.
Hans Kirkegaard (28:25)
the opposite of that is a company value
Jen Hamilton (28:28)
Hmm, that's very easy to see.
Hans Kirkegaard (28:29)
So,
Hans Kirkegaard (28:31)
you know, I thought, and as I was prepping, I'm like, what bugs me about people? And why, you know, what is it about that guy that I don't like? You know, I want to come home and take a shower after I shake his hand. What is it about that? What grates on me? And the opposite of that is, so, you know, somebody's always in it for themself first, you know.
Hans Kirkegaard (28:55)
99 times out of 100 I answer the Hello, this is Hans. How can I help you?
Hans Kirkegaard (29:01)
that is not a throwaway line. I'm very earnest about what I can help with.
Jen Hamilton (29:08)
To help first.
Hans Kirkegaard (29:11)
then, I use the do the right thing as an example of if you've got an employee who you've given the authority to make a decision, they normally make...
Hans Kirkegaard (29:21)
and they make a decision you don't agree with. It was within their authority to do it. You've given them this and if you go to them and say, you explain to me, you know, I'm not quite understanding what you're doing on this over here, can you explain to me what's going on and how you came to that decision? And if they go through and they explain, I looked at this, I looked at this, I looked at this and I thought the right thing to do was...
Hans Kirkegaard (29:44)
If you still disagree with that decision, it's because you have withheld information that you should have shared with that teammate to be able to get them to make the right decision because they went through the right thought process. They just didn't have all the information. And if you have different information, whose fault is it? It's yours, right? Because you gave them the authority. You just didn't give them all the knowledge. You didn't share the knowledge that you have.
Hans Kirkegaard (30:11)
So, you know, using that as a way to work with employees, give them the authority and still come up with it. Get them, if they give you the answer that they just winged it, you know, right?
Jen Hamilton (30:28)
Not okay.
Hans Kirkegaard (30:28)
They give an answer where they didn't think about it, they didn't process it, they didn't understand, then what are they doing with that authority?
Hans Kirkegaard (30:38)
if they're not going to think through the processes or they just took the... they press the easy button without thinking
Jen Hamilton (30:45)
Hmm.
Hans Kirkegaard (30:45)
about doing the right thing. So, you know, I use that even when I'm talking with my teammates going, you know, you've got the authority to do this, I trust you, right? You've got all this information, I know you're going to do the right thing.
Jen Hamilton (30:57)
Hmm.
Jen Hamilton (30:57)
What would you say for our listeners would be the first steps if they have wrong people in the wrong seats? What's something they can maybe start next week? So not the whole thing, but what's something they can start in this next week to address if they've got the wrong people or wrong person in the wrong seat? We won't say the whole people.
Hans Kirkegaard (31:17)
Yeah, so you know, the right seat versus wrong seat, you know, that becomes, you know, do you have the right scorecard in place? Are you putting in the right accountabilities for that person? Do they know what their accountabilities are? And what do you know, from a scorecard, what's their weekly activity that's going to keep them on track doing the things that they need to do in order to achieve their quarterly rock?
Hans Kirkegaard (31:42)
and you know what what are those things that they need to do so you know if you if you've got this question do I have the do the people GWC their their role in the company
Hans Kirkegaard (31:53)
you've got to look at your scorecard to be able to be able to see if they just don't know what they should be doing or if they're truly in the wrong seat because the scorecard is going to tell you that pretty quickly. And again I like to pick on sales because everybody understands that know sales is about how many phone calls outgoing phone calls did you send, how many outgoing personalized emails did you send, how many mailers or
Hans Kirkegaard (32:18)
how many mailers did you send, many bulk emails did you send, how many networking events did you attend. Those happen to be the five scorecard items for my salesperson, right? And, you know, we talk with them, we cover that every week in our one-on-one and in our L10. And, you know, you know.
Hans Kirkegaard (32:38)
In some of that, you know, we've got some of it's more of a monthly. So, you know, we speak to average in a month. We're going to send out so many postcards or mailers. So, you know, we may have some red boxes there week to week, but it's okay. You know, once that next mail are going. So it's doing those things in doing the right things in the, at the right cadence will fill the top of the funnel.
Hans Kirkegaard (33:03)
And just, know, sales is easy to understand what needs, it's not an easy job, but it's easy to understand the things that you should be doing, right?
Jen Hamilton (33:11)
Yes.
Hans Kirkegaard (33:12)
So, you know, everybody, you know, everybody's got to have that number that they've got to report back to the team on and be held accountable for. So, you know, I think it, to get back to your question, what do you do? What can you do immediately?
Hans Kirkegaard (33:26)
take a look at your scorecard, are you measuring the right activity? it's again in sales, you didn't hear me say how many deals did you sign the last week because that's an outcome. That's not an activity. The outcomes naturally happen. That's you know, quarterly rock is the outcome. But it's what are those building block activities that somebody needs to do?
Hans Kirkegaard (33:48)
at the right cadence, right?
Jen Hamilton (33:49)
Yeah.
Jen Hamilton (33:49)
That is what we hold them accountable to. Very powerful. Then you'll know if they're in the right seat or not, if they can't perform time after time. And then definitely worth
Hans Kirkegaard (33:58)
Yeah.
Jen Hamilton (33:59)
having that evaluation. Do they need a different seat? Do they need a different company? Thank you so much for, oh, go ahead.
Hans Kirkegaard (34:04)
Yeah, I
Hans Kirkegaard (34:06)
was just going to say, it's values that determines the right person and it's a scorecard and the GWC, I forget what the people evaluator, I'm trying to remember what EOS calls
Jen Hamilton (34:20)
Yeah.
Hans Kirkegaard (34:21)
it, how are they perceived
Jen Hamilton (34:21)
in a line 3.
Hans Kirkegaard (34:23)
by the team in their GWC role? Do they get it? Do they want it? Do they have the capacity to do it?
Hans Kirkegaard (34:28)
So, you know.
Hans Kirkegaard (34:30)
you do, I am a fan of, think it was you recommended the book Dan Martell, Buy Back Your Time.
Jen Hamilton (34:37)
If I love that
Jen Hamilton (34:38)
book too, I don't know if it was me who told you, but it is a good one.
Hans Kirkegaard (34:41)
Yeah,
Hans Kirkegaard (34:42)
I think that was a recommendation for you. One of the big things that I got from that book was his overlay of the four quadrant exercise of as you're looking for the next person in the organization, you need to look at what's below your line and what you need to get off of your plate and then look at your accountability chart and figure out what is that role.
Hans Kirkegaard (35:06)
And his big thing is the first hire you should make is your executive assistant. I don't know that that's universally true, but I think the exercise is significant that you need to offload the things that are not highest and best use of your time and what you don't enjoy.
Jen Hamilton (35:22)
really has you think
Jen Hamilton (35:24)
about where you bring the most value to the company and what you don't should be to somebody
Hans Kirkegaard (35:27)
Right? Right.
Jen Hamilton (35:29)
else. Well Hans, this has been incredible but now it's time to flip the mic and you get to ask me anything.
Hans Kirkegaard (35:36)
I don't
Hans Kirkegaard (35:37)
I don't... that's flipping the mic. I wasn't prepared for that one. I'm sorry.
Jen Hamilton (35:42)
You are okay. Is there
Hans Kirkegaard (35:45)
Yeah.
Jen Hamilton (35:45)
any, any, so I let people ask, surprise me, any questions. It could be personal, it could be professional, it could be anything you want.
Hans Kirkegaard (35:53)
Boy, a year and a half ago, two years ago, you were struggling with some family business stuff. How did,
Jen Hamilton (35:58)
gosh.
Hans Kirkegaard (35:59)
you know, I remember pulling over into a parking lot and finishing the call with you. And I really appreciated the trust you placed in me and all that you shared with me. And I thought back to that quite a bit and went, yeah, she's dealing with some of that.
Hans Kirkegaard (36:16)
stuff as well personally and I'm just curious as to how did you work all of that out.
Jen Hamilton (36:22)
First all, this is a great example of how amazing you are as a board advisor and someone who is dealing with things. So even things that I could probably tell myself, I can't. When it's us, it's so helpful to have someone like you who listens, who hears different things. So appreciate you being that kind of person to me. For me, what has been great, so my mom and her brothers own a company, myself, my sister, my cousins are going to inherit it and we're...
Jen Hamilton (36:50)
pleased to continue the family legacy and be able to continue to support our grandparents' ideas of what they had started a long time ago and how do we continue. It's a little, the business changed from what they started. The good news is I started to do some of the things I know to do and start to take things off of the plate of my mom and her brothers as they are getting to an age where
Jen Hamilton (37:15)
They don't want to do the bookkeeping. They don't want to go do the gardening. They don't want to do the different things that it is. so practicing what we preach, right, taking our own medicine, I was able to follow like a little puppy, my mom and her brothers and say, okay, I want to watch what you do. Tell me what you do. Show me what you do. And I essentially wrote out all the processes for the entire company. And so no matter what, they felt more comfortable with if something happens to them.
Jen Hamilton (37:43)
their children can at least carry on that legacy. I think whether it's writing processes or getting the right people in the right seats, we did actually hire a bookkeeper to take some work off my mom. Like just doing those things that we know can, as we were talking about, getting the right people in the right seats, allowing them to move more towards the owner box, as we talk about in EOS, having them own it, but not have to do all the work has made them much more excited about
Jen Hamilton (38:11)
the freedom that they have in their more mostly retired years to enjoy the things they want to do. But also I think it's critical as we look at secession and if you're dealing with secession planning around families, it's not easy. But now they feel good that we're going to honor their intentions and I'm excited that I know what those are. So being able to be clear of what that looks like is where we have got to. Now there's always more work to do.
Jen Hamilton (38:37)
There's a lot of respect and trust and what's nice now is that myself, my sister and my cousins, we are now invited as actually almost an informal advisory board. So we come to the board meetings and every once in a while they'll turn to us and say, what do you guys think? Which is a huge shift and I think it's giving them comfort that we're not total idiots, that we have
Hans Kirkegaard (39:01)
You
Jen Hamilton (39:01)
decent answers to the questions that.
Jen Hamilton (39:04)
It's going to help them relax and know that this thing that they are honoring of their parents is going to be passed into good hands. So thank you for asking.
Hans Kirkegaard (39:12)
Yeah, Awesome. Love to hear that
Jen Hamilton (39:14)
Yeah.
Hans Kirkegaard (39:16)
because you kind of led that process for them to discover. That's awesome.
Jen Hamilton (39:20)
Yeah. Shocking
Jen Hamilton (39:22)
that a COO would go in and do a COO thing. So yeah, it was
Hans Kirkegaard (39:24)
Yeah, yeah.
Jen Hamilton (39:28)
rewarding and probably a little harder when you're trying to get your parents and uncles from that level of relationship to the authorities in your family. I'm glad I did it and having some difficult conversations, but we're on the other side and it's much better for it.
Hans Kirkegaard (39:45)
Awesome.
Jen Hamilton (39:45)
Well, Hans,
Jen Hamilton (39:45)
as we're wrapping up, want to be able to, I know people can find fractal COOs and amazing advisors like yourself through Hamilton COOs, but how do they find you if they're like, my gosh, I would love to lean on you either to come onto my board as an advisor, or if you are owning a business and don't have a board yet, Hans is an amazing advisor to help as you listen, be able to connect those dots and guide you through that decision.
Jen Hamilton (40:13)
How can they find you?
Hans Kirkegaard (40:14)
Thank you so much for all the kind words, Jen. Really appreciate it. My email is my first name, hance, h-a-n-s, at kirkagards.net.
Hans Kirkegaard (40:23)
Or I'm on LinkedIn and have a big, decent presence there. I think it shows a picture of the skyline in Milwaukee.
Hans Kirkegaard (40:31)
and then also my Calendly address if somebody wants to book 30 minutes with me. I love, you know, that's really the part of that connection of meeting new people and understanding what's the genius that somebody else is working on. Learn, love to learn about all kinds of new stuff. So happy to connect and happy to help.
Jen Hamilton (40:56)
Well, I am happy to have you here today. I know you can probably tell why I say every time I have a conversation with hands, I'm learning something. I learned so much today and I'm sure our listeners did too. Thank you for being our guest and until next time.
Hans Kirkegaard (41:09)
Thank you so much, John.
Jen Hamilton (41:10)
You're welcome.
Jen Hamilton (41:11)
Thanks for listening to Fractional COOs to the Rescue. Don't forget, follow the show and share it with fellow visionary leaders or fractional COOs. And if you're ready to move from an owner run to a team run business, visit Hamilton COOs to learn more.
